I have been taking a beating from my ever growing legion of atheist/agnostic friends.That is why I was comforted by this 'Time' magazine cover story that explains the science behind the faith.One question remains to be asked...why would we be hard wired this way?
26 comments:
God did it. He hard-wired our brains to believe in him, as we are created in his image and his brain is hard-wired to believe in himself. It all makes sense.
Mixter
God hard wired us to have faith? Then do we really have faith then? He made our faith for us. Right? If God hard wired us for faith, then do we really need an insecure deity that couldn't trust his own design to be faithful? Is God perfect if he can not trust his own work? Maybe it is time to search for a more secure God with truly God like qualities. I always was fond of Thor God of Thunder. He co wrote Days of Thunder starring Tom Cruise(scientologist who is a closet Thor Worshiper)
...Hmmm,and here I was thinking it was an evolutionary thing..you know,sort of like a modem or a wireless router connecting us to the world wide web that is the greater earth...
The Gods of old are not technologically savvy. Sure Gods can do simple things like create humans, animals, microbial infectious diseases, crime, greed, faith, water(dont forget the ever popular water walking), planets, comets, black holes, super novas, solar systems, galaxies, and the whole universe in one big bang. Gods cant get a grip on the world wide web. Classes have been offer to the greater gods from the demi gods, but they just cant seem to get the gist of it. The whole communicating without divine inspiration has them perplexed. Just like our grandparents the super highway of the web has left the gods in the stone age.
The Mighty Thor on the other hand. Is the one true God that communicates thru the web. He even has his own facebook page to stay in touch with Odin, Freyr, Loki, Baldr and a couple of Valkyries he likes to hook up with.
Hi,guy...I like when The Mighty Thor battles The Hulk...
...I am sorry that you don't beleive God because he is not the God you think he should be...
..have you ever heard the saying,that a person is so smart that they have no commom sense?
You strike me that way...far from God being a insecure deity,us being hardwired is more a a communication thing.Praying affords us the oppurtunity to communicate with God/Earth/generic higher power.
To deny that this communication exists is not logical.How else do birds know to fly south,or fish know to migrate upstrem and whales trasverse the oceans?Yes,you can call it 'instinct',but instinct is an unscientific term used when sciece can't explain why...sort of like when a child asks why this or that and you reply,'Because.'
Just because 'you' don't understand the connection does not mean there isn't one.
Now,this 'Time' article comes out saying scientifically prayer and or meditation actually strengthens parts of the brain,and you dismiss it....
...whose being mumbo jumbly now?
Hi Drew,
I appreciate you considering me smart. As for common sense, Thor is a real God and the Hulk is a make believe character courtesy of Marvel Comics. Comic books, cartoons, and movies are not real.
So you think a birds ability to fly north and south is not instinct? You think god is inspiring each bird to fly south for winter and get a condo in Daytona Beach. The salmon that spends its adult life swimming in the ocean only to return to the place of its beginning. You think god is talking to salmon too? Hundreds of millions. Birds and fish trillions plus. Maybe you are suggesting god has inspirational email to each creature. So they do not have free will. He sends them IM's(inspirational messages)go south. Go upstream. Please Drew stop right there. Now you have God operating like Obama on the net.
Instinct is an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species. We know this by scientifically studying these species. Saying these use instinct is scientific. We understand it is instinct for salmon to swim upstream when they are a certain age to lay eggs and die. Their body tells them. Not god. We understand the birds know what season it is by the position of the sun in the sky so they can fly north or south, by instinct. That is science. Saying there is a God because you can not explain/understand life/death, and the world/universe around you is unscientific. Native Americans prayed to rain/fertility god. We look at them as a people that are ignorant of how our planet works. Greeks and Romans shared gods. They believed in an underworld. Why do we scoff at them. How is your god any different. If anything Christians should be practicing the old testament. Not the new more(lol) modern bible they do. That god is not kind, forgiving, and believe me. He would probably cast you to hell for your thoughts/sins. Either you believe or you don't. If you are going to pretend to believe that the bible was writing thru divine inspiration. How can you change the text to make it more compatible with society. It sounds more like you/church didn't believe in him the way he wrote himself to be anymore. Or the church knew the bible was written too harsh for today's society and wanted to make sure the Vatican's coffers would stay full. Money = power. If you truly believe then the old testament is for you Drew. Heretics read the new testament. Burn Baby Burn!
Lastly I will address your article in time. They used science to see that when people prayed/meditated for extended periods they front of the brain was used more. That doesnt mean god is in the front of your brain Drew. Meditate doesnt imply god either. Deep thought. Not only praying. It doesnt give them knowledge of things they didnt already know. The article doesnt say there is a god either Drew. I ignored it because it was inconsequential. Just like people that believe in god live longer. It is not gods will. It is a person has to do everything for themselves and know if they screw up its on them. A believer can go well I am protected, and will go to a better place if I die. Why worry. Same as a Muslim. Why worry. Gods will. That would be a stress, dealing with the world without an imaginary friend. Married people get benefits of longer life too. Less stress. This is not rocket science either Drew. Meditate on it and you will know I speak the truth.
If every time you come across something you don't understand you assign it to god, then you are no smarter then the native peoples of the planet. I am sure you dismiss those religions. Why?
Drew I dont go mumbly jumbly.
Well, well, well....... lots to chew on here kids!!!!
...."placebo effect can work all manner of curative magic".......
Same as a pill, you tell enough people, get them to believe it, and prayer can work "miracles" for them. The Time article even said as much.
Nothing wrong with folks that believe in such practices. Only when they want to force it on the rest of the world.
All ancient beings and societies believed in gods as a way of understanding the world around them. No different now.
People need to believe in something when they are trying to deal with situations that they either do not understand, or can not control.
All that article does is say that people who pray and believe in a God can be healthier and have a bigger or different shaped brain. I read it all. No where did I find something that said God hard wired us to believe in Him.
You found comfort in it because ti not only supports what you want it to, but also because you need it. People flock to organized religions because they need to feel part of something. They need to believe something as a whole.
I was very struck by the phrase that you used,"comforted". Why would you even need some article to give you that? The fact that more people are thinking for themselves and questioning means , to me, that more and people are beginning to think logically, factually and far less superstitiously.
I get it Drew. God is talking to all the creatures on gods green earth. The billions of trillions of creatures filling up his hard drive. So he doesnt have time to answer the prays of the parents for a child born without skin. The whole need for a god who has control of every living organism to let some poor baby suffer. When it hasnt had time to sin. Unless babys have impure thoughts while in the womb. Maybe that is why god lets them suffer.
Hi,Guy,Hi,Dharma...
...I am talking interconnection here...
...yes,I actually do believe that God talks to us all.I actually do believe that birds know how to fly south..etc...because of a power higher/greater then themselves...
..be in evolution,be it God.In other words,the bird is the system.You and me are no different.We are Earth.We are not from it..we are it.
To deny this power and just call it a generic 'instinct' is silly whether you put science before it or not.
If it is 'instinct'...what causes it?An evolutionary process?Probably.Birds use the system(electro magnetic fields,etc)to fly south.The urge to fly south is built into them....This is saying that there are powers at work greater than the bird.An eco system that the bird is just a part of.I say we are not very much different.I say that prayer connects us to the system in ways that help us use it.
Because we are it,we are wired into it....Sort of like the Borg
What you call a placebo effect,I call by it's true name:faith.Faith is not works..faith is belief.And if you believe that something can happen there is a stronger chance of it actually happening...
...ever hear of 'self fullfilling prophecy'?That is faith.That is belief.It also science.
If you believe you will fall in love there is a better chance of you falling in love than if you believe you will not fall in love.
Prayer,I beleive,takes this belief to the next next level,the level of channelling the world.Does it always happen?No.But it happens more often if you believe it will than if you don't.And if you belief that God/placebo better your odds of it happening...
..than science shows that there is a better chance of it happening.
Why ,I ask you,do you,then,question the results?
Oh and by the way,I believe that Thor would kick The Hulk's ass.
..as for Dharma's statement as to why I needed to be comforted by an article..two things...One,because it agreed with me....Two,I find it very uncomforting that you read nothing that comforts you or that you agree with.It must be very odd to disagree with everything you read.if you are too proud to gain knowledge from other ways than self discovery,why go to school?Why listn to other people's ideas....Dharma,it is not good to be so closed minded to shut off all outside influences that way.Blinders are not the answer.I say,try everything,instead,and throw away the bad.Please,don't let your broad mind and narrow waistband trade places.Think for yourself,but be open to other opinions.it is not very good to burn books and articles,even if you don't need them to become wise,you need them to not become bigoted.Why would you throw away knowledge so hap hazardly?
Drew,
I don't disagree with everything that I read. Where would you even draw that conclusion. I merely stated that you found comfort from an article and you also find it from the bible. Why would you need it if you are as securely planted in it as you say?
I am not closed minded to outside influences. As a matter of fact I tried many of them out in my quest for knowledge. Now, after having had those experiences, I have finally found a place that makes REAL sense. I don't need to rely on a hidden and unseen force to make my way through life. To make it better or to ask for things. I make my life the success or failure that it is.
Other people influence parts of it, but they are all earthly beings.
I read the article Drew and it did nothing but say that people who pray can make themselves feel better. Just like giving some sick people a placebo. Nothing more than that. IT did not say that God existed, because they can not prove it or say it. Simply if people believe it works it can work. Power of the mind!
Like Guy said a few pages back, and I agree with him, if God was real and so awesome why make the world suffer? Children die etc. Suffering seems to be a mantra from the very religious. They think everyone must suffer, blah, blah, blah until they "come to Christ". If this is the case why not go back to the day of human sacrifices? Why not follow the paths that christianity was taken from?
It is all just science. Palin and simple. Some folks need something else. Maybe because they feel a void in their life, maybe they are lacking other meaningful relationships, maybe they need something to make them feel less small in the universe to think that there is something out there in the cosmos. Who can say.
Personally I do not feel the need to have a guide, I do not feel weak enough to have to say that someone greater is in control of my life other than me.
To say that their is science behind the faith....they are only saying that the placebo effect does exist and works. That is all. Nowhere do they endorse prayer. They simply say that it does something in the brain of those who do it. If God has something to do with it why mess with the brain? Why not just come right out and do things for people instead of making them miserable enough that they feel that they have to pray for everything?
....Hi,again,Dharma,sometimes you befuddle me...do you think I can actually only gain faith and and knowledge from the Bible?
Faith and knowledge is all around me.I find lessons everywhere.Sure,The Bible is a great teaching tool,but so are our conversations..
..I fail to see your point on the articles...they do seem to say that faith helps in healing..
..if your belief is that you need no guide or higher power in life..that is cool with me..
..as for suffering..the world is what it is..whether you believe in a higher power or not...
..I am not afraid of death,and how can there be joy without suffering?Well drugs...
..in finding your way,to deny the world as it is is sort of living in a fantasy world..
..the world makes allot more sense when you accept that there is suffering and joy in it..
acknowledging suffering is not the same as enjoying it.In fact,acknowledging a problem is the first step in solving it.
I can see why you don't believe in a higher power that let's suffering exist in the world..
..but why do you let suffering exist?If I am in pain why not comfort me instead of asking why I need comforted?
..Ooh mighty Dharma,I have an itch I can't scratch(wink wink),can you bring me relief?!?
No,will be your answer.Find the awswer within yourself,or by yourself...
Why you are no different than God.How can I believe in a Dharma that won't cool my itch?!?
Ooh,Dharma,how can you allow this long ..suffering... itch to continue...
..you say I shouldn't need you to scratch my itch...
..but how can I believe in your teachings when you let my itch continue unabaited?
you say you are wise but won't scratch my itch!
well,let me tell you,I don't need you to scratch me,see,I can scratch myself(scratch scratch..aaaaah)
Not only won't you scratch me,you won't even tell me why I itch.I blame you.It is your fault that I itch!
Yet,you won't do anything about it.
therefore,why should I need you?I don't.It was silly to believe that I ever did.There never was an itch scratcher other than me...
The fantasy is believing in a higher power that made every single atom in the universe. Now uses magnetic powers to answer prayers and communicate with the animals/aliens. A god that you can not see, touch, hear. A god that was written in a book by men 2000 years ago. Men that stole ideas for this god from other religions. Stole stories from other cultures. A religion that the roman emperor decided what gospels were to be in it. You mean this the same religion based on a person that was so famous. Other than the STORIES in the bible, there is NO record of him existing back then. There are records of all important people back then around Palestine. So this fantasy YOU are living Drew is really in your head. You need to be the one to look at facts. Read a little other than the bible. A wonderful FABLE. I dont mind religious people as long as they never try to say their religion is true. Like out of the millions that have been invented on this planet yours is true. How ridiculous is that. VERY! The fact are dinosaurs walked the earth hundreds of millions of years ago. God was invented by man. Obama is President. To speak from a perch of ignorance that there is a god is silly.
Drew you are a nice guy. I am OK with you make believing in anything that makes you feel better. Just dont sell the fable. The internet works. Open your mind to the truth out there. Surf away.
I gotta agree with Guy, especially that last sentence.
By the way, your new template is about 1000x better than the old one.
Mixter
I love what Guy said!! Stolen stories and gods etc. from other religions etc. YES!!!!!
Everyone's religion is TRUE to them. Excellent writing Guy. Love the way you think. I could not have said it better. Whatever works for you Drew. The fable is not for me any more than any other.
I do like the new blog look. Nice color. Better look.
Hi,Guy,Mixter & Dharma...yeah,there are no falsehoods on the www...
....Yes,there is collaberating evidence of the Bible..other great flood stories...and yes,some even predate the Bible...most of what Jesus taught was not new...and as for other evidence then the gospels of Jesus...I'll leave you to figure that out...check outt your world wide web...
I believe what I believe.I base my belief on actual practice.I have seen my faith work..yes it has even worked miracles...
...for me to ignore the personal evidence the true things that have happened to me,because you three say I am only believing in fables would not be very smart on my part.
It reminds me of this story by Nathaniel Hawthorn called,'The Ambitious Guest'.[ http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1781/ ] It is very short,you should read it.
I believe my own eyes instead of your multiplicity of words.
There are millions of reasons NOT to believe-and you can convince yourself of any of them...
...But I believe for only one reason...because it is true.
If you consider me ignorant,and foolish...so be it.Let it be known that I consider neither of you three either.
Well I will leave you be with this. Did you ever consider. Really consider that if you did not believe those same personal experiences would have turned out the same? I have seen/done a lot of crazy stuff. When things are all said and done, I thought wow that was lucky. I didnt think gee some guy in the sky was looking out for me. Also when bad stuff happens. I am not thinking why God do you make me suffer so. I think, Crap I was a fool, stupid, and or unlucky. It really is how you look at it. If you were raised to believe, that is hard to change. You for the rest of your life will give credit when not deserved to God. When it was your strength as a person that got you through it all along.
Yes I read the story. Just a story.
I didn't see anyone calling you ignorant or foolish, Drew.
I believe that you are comforted by the notion of God, and I certainly don't have a problem with it. But, don't expect me to believe it, because that won't happen.
Off topic: Guy With an Eye having a Guy in the Sky watching out for him? :D
Mixter
Guy if it were just luck,as you say,I would believe..er...think,the way you do,but my experiences go beyond luck.
Of course,I have also had lucky experiences,but,these other experiences,while on the rhelms of possibilities of luck verge into the unmarked territory of beyond that,and well into faith and belief.
These experienses I will not go into,because you would probably still not believe,or you would call them preaching-or both.But they were enough to convince me that there was more involved than just chance.
Because allot of it wasn't chance..it was more like messages,answered prayers,and guidence.it is hard to explain to someone that prefers not to interpet the way I obviously choose to see things.
of course I realize that one's life is easier denying God.One doesn't have to obey their conscience..or better put,be OK at ignoring it.
With that said,throughally knowing myself as well as I do,I call truthfully acknowledge that I need this guidence probably allot more than you do.
I am not claiming to be in any way better than you-quite the opposite,I am probably worse.
I am a fumbler.I take for granted the blessings in my life.I trip in fall and go up shit creek without a paddle.I throw away things I probably should consider holy.I am overly greedy and lustful.
Maybe that is why I am so stupid in my belief and can't follow your lead.I just can't take for granted the blessings that have fallen into my lap
Drew what could you possibly assign to God that wouldn't happen anyway? Sick people get better. Cancer can go into remission. People come out of comas. People survive being hostages. What could possibly have happened that you feel beyond a doubt that God looked down from heaven, to find Drew. Bless him with some minor miracle to save the day. With all the birds, fish, butterfly's migrating North and South, god dispatching IM's to all. He would find the time to save you or someone you love. Really? I am sure what ever your thinking would have turned out the same. It is just you have spent your whole life depending on your faith. You have programed yourself to give god credit when times are tough. If the outcome is good, he saved you. If outcome is bad, your thanking him because it could have been worse. Your leaning on a crutch, and afraid to leave crutch at home. You dont need the crutch. You are fine.
If I didn't know for sure you didn't quite mean it the way it sounded, I would take offense at the idea that atheists are okay with "not obeying" or "ignoring" their consciences. That statement sounds as if we are without a source of moral or ethical judgment. We are atheist, not amoral. We don't need a book or a belief in a deity to tell us what is right over wrong.
You seem to believe that you have proof of some sort of miracle, but "answered" prayers, to me, are just how things turned out, due to the actions of people or things.
Your blessings have just "fallen into your lap?" You, your circumstances, other people, or just dumb luck, have absolutely nothing to do with how you got those blessings? God just bestowed them upon you? Then how do you explain those bad things that occur in your life? Did God give you those as well?
Mixter
Hi,Guy,you choose not to believe and believe me,that's fine.
But I go by what st.Peter said,God has to be faith based,first you have to believe that there is a God,and then you have to believe he would be willing to help you.
Mixter was just talking about how lost can lead to growth-how it makes us step out of the box.
whether we choose to accept all that life(with it's suffering and death)gives us,or we refuse to acknowledge that life is a journey filled with ups and downs,I believe that God helps us in both.
you don't have to.If God worship troubles you,then you are right in not only questioning it,but fighting against it.
I choose to accept God.To worship him.To pray to him.To study him.
Who am I to look down at any miracle no matter how minor?
What minor miracle is the frosting on your cake of Christianity? I asked that before and here again.
I have to jump in here with Mixter. Are you aserting that we have no conscience? I beg to differ. I have a moral code. I just do not need the book you use etc. to tell me how to live. Remember there were guides long before Christianity. The ones that you use were taken from others and made to be what the people in charge wanted them to be. Something to control the masses. Can't you see that that is exactly what it does for you?
So when bad things happen to people what are the reasons? What did they do to anger God that he felt that they should be punished? If we follow your way of thinking then everything that happens is from God and we really are just puppets with no control over our own lives. Is that really how you like and want to live?
Like Guy stated, the things that happened in your life would have happened and you would have assigned them a "good or bad" label anyway.
Dharma...according to your thinking if someone thought a thought before you,that makes your thought invalid,then how are your thoughts valid?A conscience shouldn't be made fun of...right and right are not always black and white and what maybe right today maybe wrong tomorrow,you are the one basing everything on strick laws,not me..God can't be this because of that,why does God allow this when he lets this happen?
It's all rules to you.
You are so tight with your judgements,I am beginning to wonder what court of laws are you holding me under?You are like an medevil court,I believe would not be happen until you tortured me into your ways of thinking.When did your wide range of acceptance turn into narrow pin pusher type of beaurucratic the means justifies the end persecution of me?Is your urge to show that you are right and inelligent justify your figurtively stoning mee to death?
This type of thinking is why I never have totally felt wanted or liked by you.Your need to condemn me is very oppressive.
Your saying that I must accept your every ramdom thought because you think it is almost as unnerving as your right to condemn and ridicle me just because I don't think like you.
This is supposed to turn me to your way of thinking?
I'd rather love you instead,blindedly,and just because I see the wonder that is you.You are the miracle that makes me believe.You are the wonder that makes me know that there is a God.And you'll never be able to convince me otherwise...
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